Getting back to some of your suggestions for topics… This one comes from Kokopelli25:
How do you deal, as a woman, with the church’s view of women on equally valuable yet excluded from the “high-prestige” posts the church has to offer? It would certainly turn me off.
Thanks for the topic, Koko! This certainly is an issue with which many of us women religious struggle mightily (and you may have noticed that it came up in another recent post.) In a way, it comes down to whether or not one feels that the best way to bring about change is to work from within the institution. After all, the Roman Catholic church is my church, too! Johannes B. Metz writes that religious communities are
a kind of shock therapy instituted by the Holy Spirit for the Church as a whole. [Followers of Christ: the Religious Life in the Church, trans. Thomas Linton (NY: Paulist Press, 1978).]
So when sisters, either individually or collectively, attempt to call Church leaders to task on issues of justice and abuse of power, we are not necessarily being “disobedient” – we might just be being faithful to our prophetic and corrective role on behalf of the entire Church, often at great cost.
Having said that, I go back and forth sometimes between feeling I need to stay in the struggle and feeling I cannot stay in the Church. If it were not for my religious community and my parish community, I wonder if I would still be a practicing Catholic.
For an example of some of what I struggle with, read this article about Sr. Louse Lears, who has been placed on interdict by the Archbishop of St. Loius, who immediately after was transferred to Rome.
What makes it especially difficult for me personally is that to many lay Catholics who are not in religious communities and to those outside the Church, being a woman religious is perceived as being a part of the power structure, when in reality, we are often merely the recipients of draconian punishments for our “disobedience.” (It’s even a risk for me to write this post.) I’ve often told friends that at times, it is far easier to come out as a lesbian than to come out as an RC nun. And I’m only half joking…
Still, while we women religious do not have a strong voice in the institutional power structure, we have tremendous personal and communal power, that when rooted in discerment and fidelity to the Gospel of Jesus, is desperately needed in our Church and our world. May we not be bullied into fearing to claim that God-given power for bringing about communion on all levels.
How about some of the rest of you women religious (or anyone else, for that matter)? I welcome your views – feel free to remain anonymous (and play nice) – I totally understand!
This brought back memories of one of your previous post “Women and the RC Church” July 18, 2007. But in that post Sr. Regina’s refusal was to sign a letter that she was a practicing Catholic. I thought she was treated very unfair.
Sister Louse Lears sounds like a wonderful woman, who maybe got caught up in the moment of wanting something so badly made a wrong decision.
To the author of this blog and readers/posters :
Women – religious and lay women – do have a very important role in the Catholic Church. We who are members of the Church are indeed blessed with their history and presence.
At the same time, this does not mean women can or will ever be priests, let alone bishops.
This is not an opinion. This is a matter of Catholic teaching. Pope John Paul II clearly stated that this is not something that the Church nor the Pope can change.
Specifically reference The Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the sacrament of Holy Orders : page 439/440 section VI Who Can Receive This Sacrament : ” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri)to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same . . .the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.”
Summarily stated, simply read the last statement again. Women priests/bishops will never happen in the Roman Catholic Church because it can not happen.
For all who would like to read a blog that provides insight into the sisters attempt at ordination take a read of John Zuhlsdorf’s post from What Does The Prayer Really Say or (WDTPRS) dated 7-10-08 and entitled : NCReporter: St. Louis Archdiocese videoed women’s ordination rite
http://wdtprs.com/blog/
An interesting point also is how the role of women as priests and especially as bishops is splitting the Catholic Church Of England such that the CofE is looking to The Pope to be accepted into the fold of the Roman Catholic Church.
Readers should note that the priests going through and receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders – especially the younger priests- are more traditional minded than the priests from the mid 1960’s – 1970’s era- the so called hippy era in the US.
Witness also Pope Benedict the XVI’s call also to the TLM and proper liturgy.
Can you see where the Church is heading?
Continuing, it is interesting to me that the author of nunsuch refers to God as Herself.
It is my understanding that humans in their limited capacity try to categorize God into male and female when God is neither.
On a final note, to those sisters / nuns who joined their orders and have been and are now advocating silently or vocally women’s ordination to the priesthood : did they NOT know the Church’s position regarding who can receive Holy Orders?
And, if these same nuns/sisters are unable and/or unwilling to accept the Church’s position regarding the priesthood and if it causes them such angst so that they dislodge the unity of the faithful, why do they stay nuns/sisters?
Or,
Thanks, DJC…it would be interesting to know if Sr. Louise feels she made a wrong decision, and if so, what the nature of it is from her point of view.
Dear Kazimer,
Welcome to this blogging community! First, it looks like your comment got truncated somehow…if so you might want to send a continuation of it when you get a chance…
Thank you for your response…we might not agree on various issues, but your views are welcome here, and I appreciate the respect with which you put them forward.
There’s so much I could respond to here…I’ll just pick a couple of things and see where our conversation leads, hoping some others will join in.
You quote the Catechism as saying, ” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same . . .the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.”
Could we not add the following sentence using the same reasoning?
“For this reason, there shall never be any more than (nor less than) twelve bishops.”
The second point I’d like to respond to is my use of a feminine pronoun when I refer to the Holy Spirit, and less frequently, to God. We are in agreement that God is neither male nor female, and that no gendered pronoun or name can adequately express the fullness of God. So I try not to use pronouns unless just repeating God instead of He makes for an overly awkward expression. In such a case, the gender-neutral pronoun “It” hardly seems appropriate – it sounds as jarring to me as I’m sure “She” sounds to you. In those cases, I’m simply trying to remind myself that God is not male by attempting to correct for the overuse of the male pronoun when referring to God.
As for the Holy Spirit, if we have in the Trinity Father and Son, both male symbols, why can’t the Holy Spirit be referred to in feminine terms? You guys would still have 2 out of 3 – wink, wink. Joking aside, there is actually some good precedent for that in the Hebrew scripture. I don’t want to get into a Bible-battle, but just have a look at some of the Wisdom literature…Wisdom is referred to there in feminine terms…
Let’s keep talking…
Greetings, Sandy,
Many years ago, our young daughter answered an old Jesuit father that when she grew up she wanted to be a priest. Ah-Ah, answered the nice man, at the moment you cannot. But this can change, since the priesthood of men is dogma and not doctrine.
All this to say that our sexist prelates can say that women cannot be priests till they’re blue in the face, it can be changed.
And yes it seems to be dangerous to be a religious sister and take stands that are not in complete agreement with Rome. It must not be easy to be a sister right now and follow the movement of the Spirit.
I have been asked to leave the Catholic Church by some conservative Catholics. It has been tempting for a while. But it is also my church
And as Elizabeth Schüssler-Fiorenza answered once to such a suggestion (to leave the Church(, she answered, I am not the one who should be leaving. The Pope (John Paul II then) is.
The point really maybe is that the tension between the Law and the Spirit is as great now as it was at the time of VaticanII. The funny part is that Benedict was an actor in Vatican II and
he seems to have gone back on what he believed then.
A poet, Aragon, said that the future of man is the woman. I believe the future of the Church is also woman, woman priests, and why not some day, a woman pope. Just imagine, some pink smoke coming out, instead of black or white.
Archbishop Burke and others are creating martyrs at the moment. Every renewal is in need of martyrs. Unfortunately many martyrs have been usually kept hidden by the hierarchy. Internet will no longer allow this.
I sense Rome and some prelates are scared of the winds of change and angry at those who announce them, just like the Pharisees in Jesus’ time (not all, of course, some are open to change, even calling for it, like Cardinal Martini).
The change is not over, of course, and it will still take time. How much time? I don’t know. We used to say that at the rate things change for women, their wage would be equal to that of men within 475 years — a glacial speed. But, because of global warming, the glaciers are melting very fast now. So, who knows, maybe women will bring about changes faster
PS: Not all women, of course. If it is not easy to come out as a lesbian, or a RC nun, it is not easy to come out as a feminist either. Basically, it is very hard to break the image men have made centuries to construct, a feminine image that suits men to perfection, but is not good for us at all.
Godde bless.
Dear Blogreaders:
This is one of the very issues that has caused me to leave the catholic church. The conservatives say “it is church teaching; it is church law; it is deigned by Jesus and the Holy Spirit” while missing the point – this teaching is all interpreted by MEN who have a vested interest in maintaining the power positions.
I am not a “feminazi” or a “man hating lesbian” (two titles which were given to me when I made waves) but, in fact, a married mother of two children. I prefer to think of myself as a “people loving woman” who is trying to live out my life as an example to others.
I have followed this St. Louis story as this is the town where I grew up and am just disgusted by the Archbishop who, from what I can tell, sent someone in to video tape what he considered to be subverside activities. Sr. Louise was not being ordained, she was simply there in celebration of others. What will be next for this Raymond Burke? Offering rewards to children who will turn in their parents for not taking them to Sunday School? It smacks of Nazi technique to me.
I am very saddened by the fact that I am no longer considered a practicing catholic but cannot remain part of such a male dominated church that abuses their power.
I read your blog fairly regularly, Sr. Sandy, and really just felt the need to comment today!
PS:
I interchanged doctrine and dogma. Only men being priests is part of the doctrine. Sorry for that. Anyway, it still means this can be changed, and women can be priests.
Also, Sandy, thank you so much for this blog in particular, and all those you write.
love
I thought your readers would find this interesting…
What is the relationship between Sister Louise Lears, S.C. and the Archdiocese of
St. Louis?
Sister Louise Lears, a Sister of Charity, is a member of the Pastoral Team at St. Cronan’s
Catholic Church in South St. Louis, and a Coordinator of Religious Education in the
Archdiocese of Saint Louis.
Why is the Archbishop concerned about her actions?
The Archbishop was made aware that Sister Louise Lears actively participated in the
attempted female ordinations in St. Louis in November 2007 (see background on
http://www.archstl.org in the News section). In the apostolic letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis,
Pope John Paul II reaffirmed that the Catholic Church has no authority to confer priestly
ordination on women. This teaching is to be held definitively by all the faithful as
belonging to the deposit of faith.
What is the most recent development?
In January, the Archbishop privately issued to Sister Louise Lears a summons and
canonical admonition. According to the teachings of the Church and Canon Law, a
canonical admonition is a warning communicated by the Archbishop that informs
someone that he/she is suspected of having committed a grave violation against Church
teachings or law. It also informs the person who receives the letter that he/she should stop
violating the law, and make amends to repair any harm done as a result. It is considered
the most earnest request imaginable to warn the faithful that he/she is in grave spiritual
danger.
The Archbishop met with Sister Louise Lears to inform her of his concerns. These
concerns included her repeated public advocacy of the attempted ordination of women,
and the harmful spiritual impact her actions were having on others while serving as an
employee of a parish of the Archdiocese of St. Louis.
Because Sister Lears has not acknowledged that her public actions are contrary to
definitive Catholic teaching, which Canon law requires her to do, the Archbishop is
obliged to issue the penalty of interdict. This means that Sister Louise Lears cannot have
any ministerial part in the celebration of the Sacrifice of the Eucharist or in any other
ceremonies of public worship, or receive any Sacrament until she repents. The penalty of
interdict is aimed at calling the persons away from their sin and to reconciliation with
Christ and His Church.
What happens to her position at St. Cronan’s Catholic Church and with the
Archdiocese of St. Louis?
She is relieved of her positions as a member of the Pastoral Team at St. Cronan’s
Catholic Church and Coordinator of Religious Education anywhere in the Archdiocese of
St. Louis.
Why does the Archdiocese of St. Louis have to make this public?
Because the person who has committed the offense has continually and publicly rejected
a teaching of the Catholic Faith while serving as a member of the Pastoral Team of a
parish in the Archdiocese of St. Louis.
The penalty of interdict seems harsh and divisive.
An interdict is really an urgent call to reform one’s conduct in the future. It’s classified as
a “medicinal penalty” by the Church precisely because its main purpose is to bring about
reform in the individual. Having certain actions punished by interdict demonstrates that
certain actions are gravely wrong in themselves and cause deep harm both to their
perpetrators and to others. The hope of this interdict, and all interdicts, is that the parties
will be awakened to their offenses and seek to return to full Communion in the Church.
What if I support female ordination? Does that mean I will be placed under interdict?
What a person holds privately is a matter of conscience, and conscience must be formed
according to the truth as it is enunciated in the Church’s teaching. The penalty of
interdict would only be imposed upon someone who, by a serious and external action,
denied the truth that the Church cannot ordain a woman to the Sacred Priesthood. What
is more, the penalty would only be imposed after a careful canonical process, in which
the person accused is given ample opportunity to respond to the accusation and defend
him/herself. When a person in a leadership position in the Church or a member of a
religious order publicly writes and acts in a manner contrary to the Church’s teaching, it
causes serious confusion about what the Church teaches and leads people into error about
the same. In such a situation, the Archbishop must intervene to make clear the Church’s
teaching and to repair the harm caused.
For more information about the Church’s teaching on female ordination, log onto
http://www.archstl.org.
STATEMENT OF THE PARISH COUNCIL OF SAINT CRONAN CHURCH
in the matter of the Canonical Discipline of Sister Louise Lears, S.C.
27 June 2008
Sister Louise Lears was removed from the Pastoral Team of Saint Cronan Church by the action of Archbishop Raymond Leo Burke on Thursday 26 June 2008. No communication was received by the pastor or people of the parish, other than the publication of the “Decree of Extra-Judicial Adjudication” on the Archdiocesan web site late in the day 26 June 2008. The decree relieves Sr. Louise of her service to us and our children and seeks to remove her from our common worship, effective immediately.
The people of Saint Cronan Church wholeheartedly support the pastoral work of Sr. Louise Lears and have been edified by her depth of caring for the people of this parish, our children, the children of our neighbors, and the men and women who call the Forest Park Southeast neighborhood of St. Louis home. Sister Louise has been a model of compassion and of non-violent resolution of conflict. She has encouraged us to live more fully the Gospel of Jesus. It saddens us deeply that she has been singled-out for prosecution in a Church court and we raise serious questions of the wisdom of having one man serve as prosecutor, judge, jury,—and now, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court—in any supposed system of Justice.
We are concerned that Archbishop Burke seems more comfortable seeking resolution of conflict through recourse to Church law and by wielding his considerable power and authority over officials in the Archdiocese and its formal legal structures, rather than following the simpler, less expensive, and more challenging course of action recommended by Jesus (Matthew 5:21-26) that we seek reconciliation face-to-face with those with whom we are in conflict.
The people of Saint Cronan Church repeatedly invited Archbishop Burke to engage in conversation with us. The Archbishop repeatedly declined our invitations.
The long tradition of the Roman Catholic Church has held the primacy of an individual’s conscience in making ethical decisions. The people of Saint Cronan Church respect this tradition and we recognize Sr. Louise’s integrity and courage
DJC, the first part of your most recent contribution looks familiar. I think it’s from the St Louis Archdiocese, right?
Hello Sr. Sandy,
Thank you for the graciousness of your response to me regarding the post I made on women in the RC Church.
After I made my post, I felt uncomfortable – - – in that I felt my tone was brusque – - -although I didn’t mean it to come across in that manner. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone. In fact, I have a profound respect for all those people in religious vocations , both male and female. I truly feel it is a beautiful way to live one’s life.
However, I still felt I came off not in my best light .
So, to read your response was humbling to me and comforting at the same time ~ Thank you.
Continuing, after reading your response , I appreciate your willingness to be open to dialogue.
To take one your last point first ~ I appreciate and understand your point regarding the use of feminine pronouns in reference to God. I also acknowledge and accept how wisdom is referred in feminine terms. . .it is a very beautiful reference.
Also, I am not an argumentative person by nature and so I am with you in not getting into a Bible battle. After all, at a deeper level, the idea of choosing sides doesn’t always make sense to me when perhaps we are looking towards the same “thing” yet from a different angle ie perspective.
Moving on … I would probably be referred to as a traditionalist ( think EWTN in some ways) and as a young fogey. Interestingly, there is a blog called Young Fogeys written by Fr. Jay Toborowsky. Here is the link: http://youngfogeys.blogspot.com/.
So, when say the R.C. priesthood is for men, I am thinking of the terms In persona Christi , the Latin phrase meaning “in the person of Christ” . ( I included the meaning in case there are others who may be reading this post and are familiar with this term).
And, continuing, I look upon the Roman Catholic Church as the Bride of Christ.
So, for me, this is how I come to my understanding and position as to the RC priesthood being for men only.
It is a similar position I hold with respect to marriage ie marriage is soley to be between a man and a woman. In other words, I am not in agreement with and am opposed to same sex marriages.
My position and support of a male only priesthood in no way reflects that men are superior to women or that women are lesser than men.
I believe that both men and women have their own uniqueness an expression of their inner self as to their respective roles in the RC. And, on a higher level that the beauty and dignity of each man and woman’s soul is not simply relegated to gender.
I will save the following for perhaps a different blog entry, yet I am curious to know your thoughts on Fr. Z’s blog What Does The Prayer Really Say as well as the movement toward the TLM.
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to put forth my thoughts on your blog.
In deepest respect,
Kazimer
p.s. Please feel free to call me Kaz.
Hello, Kaz!
Not to worry, I didn’t take your “brusqueness” personally. I realize that folks get pretty passionate about these issues.
I just checked out the “Young Fogeys” blog. While Fr. Jay and I probably wouldn’t agree on some things, I really like his style.
I’ll have to think about Fr. Z’s blog and respond later. BTW, what is TLM? Is it “the Latin Mass”?
Ok…back again after having another look at Fr. Z’s blog. Is the man a prolific blogger or what?! I can’t imagine having enough time to post as much as he does.
As for my impressions, to be honest, I did not find the tone of his blog to be particularly inviting. I perceived a sense of smugness and flippancy when it came to discussing some of the “hot-button” issues that not all Catholics agree on. I also find it somewhat troubling that he does not encourage his readers to be more respectful and less judgmental in their comments.
My dear Kaz, I realize that your perception may be quite different, but you did ask me for my thoughts.
Blessings to you!
Dear Sister Sandy,
Thank you for taking the time to post your response back to me so quickly, especially with all that you have going on in your life.
I am kind of new at this blogging thing, so I am looking around at the various sites by nuns/sisters and priests.
As far as Fr Z goes ~ yes, that man seems to be a blogging machine. I have to say while I find his posts informative, they are somewhat dry and sometimes hard to make a personal connection.
I’ve really enjoyed the nun/sister blogs such as A Nun’s Life, The Musings of A Discerning Woman, and your blog.
There are some priests blog that I am drawn to such as A Jesuits Journey and Kicking And Screaming.
I believe it sometimes hard , if not unfair regarding labels so for me I sometimes find myself swaying between Tradionalists and Liberal depending on the subject , even within the RC Church.
Sometimes it feels I have the mind of a Traditionalist and the Heart of a Liberal with the highest meanings of afforded to each. I hope this makes sense.
Oh, TLM. Yes I am referring to the Latin Mass.
I haven’t been to one, but I have read that for those in attendance and for the priest celebrating , it brings a new meaning to the Mass.
So…maybe that can be explored in another post.
I am most appreciative in your caring and kindness that you have afforded me in your post.
And, while we may have different perspectives in respect to certain areas, we may also find that we share similarities as well.
I look forward to reading future entries from you.
I echo your sentiments – Blessings to you .
Kaz
Claire,
Just getting back to your comment – finally! Thanks for your perspective. As for Pope Benedict and his role at Vatican II (V-II), there are some that would say he’s not going back on the Council directives, but executing a “re-do” on their implementation.
This is what makes things so difficult…people see and interpret things so differently.
Being a child at the time of V-II, I wasn’t so aware of the most zany experiments that people talk about (clown Masses, for example). I’m gathering that there was a bit of “wildness” (for lack of a more suitable word at the moment) among some in my and perhaps other orders. But in my view, that has died down to a large extent.
Yet, I suspect that the reaction we are seeing so strongly is to the early halcyon years immediately following V-II, not to the tamer, but still lay-empowered Church of today.
As for sexism in the Church…yes, it is there. However, I don’t find it helpful to put the sexist label on people – it’s kind of a dialog stopper. I believe there are many men who have had a radical awakening to the reality of the male privilege that permeates society and Church structures, and it’s my hope that the Holy Spirit will act in the hearts of women and men all over the world to end violence of any kind towards women, children, and the poor. (Not a bad attitude for beginning retreat, eh?)
Dear Elizabethanne,
I feel bad that I have not responded to you sooner…in the rush of comments coming with our Chapter meetings and then retreat, I didn’t get to responding to your comment.
I am so sorry for the pain you have experienced and that has caused you to leave the RC church. This is one of those times when it is hard to “come out as a nun,” for I have no desire to even try to defend any abuse of power such as you describe.
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
I think my experience is a bit similar to ElizabethAnne’s. When I was a child and into my teen years, I dreamed of becoming a nun. As I grew up though, I became more and more critical of the Church; the sexism, hypocrisy, and sometimes utter lack of regard for common sense. Of course it wasn’t just the Church that made me change my mind about joining the convent – I also realized that I was really more agnostic in my religious views than Catholic, and of course, being an agnostic nun is not exactly possible.
Despite my estrangement from the Church, and my now lack of religiosity, it was extremely difficult to come to terms with the fact that I was not going to become a nun. I had so wanted it as a child, and grew up thinking that it was going to happen, only for it to ultimately be an impossible path for me. Sometimes I still grieve for it, and even though I’ve become agnostic, it still hurts, because I knew I had to let it go.
I wish the Church were different – I wish the Church were more like the nuns that it so consistently ignores and shuts down. It’s hard to even imagine how different things could be.
Thanks, Samantha, for sharing. What helps me somewhat is remembering that “WE are the Church.” The Church is the “people of God”, not just the men who hold the structural power in the institution. After all, who can bottle up the Holy Spirit indefinitely?
Trying to put a positive view on some of the seemingly reactionary responses, I try to think of some of the heavy-handedness as a hopeful sign…if you will, the “death rattle” of patriarchy. Alas, it promises to be a long, painful death, but come it will…